Religion

[BigMac63]

^^^^^ Made my morning!

[thermos]

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Sure Binary....seriously, I find this stuff interesting. You and your razor again?


Lifted from Wiki...

Additionally, it is argued that Occam's razor can be used against the argument, showing how the argument fails using both the efficient and conserving types of causality.


In my very little brain.....it just seems logical that finite things cannot create themselves and have a "cause". Although the very man I quoted above (Hume) said that we can't apply causality to the universe, only the known.

[binary_jester]

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Yep. One other point. Theists argue the universe must have a creator, something cannot come from nothing, hence the need for a creator. But to use that argument, applying the same logic, wouldn't the creator need a creator? Ahhh...being a creator, he has always been. Then, the universe, or its precursor, could have always been.


Now here is one point mentioned, but I think really needs to be expanded on.
Religion talks about choice...free will. If God is truly omniscient, free will is not possible. For there to be true free will, there has to be an element of chance. If God knows the outcome, that is not free will. Essentially, Gid would have to say, "I didn't see that coming".

[thermos]

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I agree with you......from a pure reasoning standpoint - the first cause had to have had a first cause.....but this is when my brain shuts down and I put on my agnostic hat. We can't figure it out. Or perhaps an all powerful being isn't finite and bound by the logic and causality that we strive to understand?


I totally agree on the predestination/free will stuff - I think I ranted about that on here before. Also - if it's predetermined and already done - why even bother praying? Isn't divine intervention a stain on the beautiful concept of free will? Granted, you CHOSE to pray - but by him/her/it intervening - doesn't that interfere?

Although - theists will counter that just because he KNOWS what will happen doesn't mean he MADE it happen. It's like knowing the end of movie but being unable to edit it whilst it's playing?

Fuck, what am I even talking about? I'm gonna go look at shaved vaginas now......that always soothes my troubled mind.

[step234]

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That kinda ruins their views on god being omnipotent though :P

Every theist rationalisation seems to throw another spanner in the works, which needs yet another rationalisation and pretty soon you're in a tangle where you're in real danger of contradicting yourself.

[thermos]

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Agreed. Perhaps I phrased that wrong......my mother or family or whomever tries to preach to me would have said......he's unwilling to edit the movie, not unable.

Meaning, he could fuck with it if he wanted.....but he doesn't? It almost makes the gift of free will bigger than him? It's even more fucked up to think of little babies being raped because a lonely god wanted something to worship him freely.