Favorite Firearms

[Soze]

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“I personally believe, that U.S. Americans,
are unable to do so,
because uh,
some, people out there, in our nation don’t have guns.
and uh…
I believe that our firearm education like such as in South Africa,
and the Iraq,
everywhere like such as…
and, I believe they should uh,
our guns over here,
in the U.S. should help the U.S.
or should help South Africa,
and should help the Iraq and Asian countries so we will be able to build up our future,
for us.”

[MillyMc]

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the problem is that the people that want to walk around strapped to the teeth dont live in places where people tend to get shot. often. like an inner city. (and of course the reverse is true, leading to 2 different but subjectively correct points of view. of course if people were able to shed their relativism it would solve most of our problems, but unfortunately that is not a likely achievement)

now gun advocates say that is bc people dont mess with someone bc they are scared they may be packing.

this of course is patently false. you go to an inner city and a corner boy wont have an education or a car or a place of his own.....but hes got a gun that cost him close to a grand (bc illegal guns cost more). now does that stop people from tying to rob him or take over his corner? does the fear that his assailants may have a gun prevent him from shooting someone that comes up on him hard? NO. you go to an inner city and you know who is packing. but for whatever sociological reasons, there is still conflict. unfortunately due to the prevalence of guns in our society, these are deadly conflicts as opposed to sharks v jets knife fights of the past.

And of course that takes us to the problem of illegal guns. now if all the states were as strict as the northeast to get a gun- i would have less of a problem. however, youve got these flyover redneck states that let anyone buy a guy at a walmart. most of the gun crime in ny and nj is from guns bought in PA and the south. i think there is like 2 stores that provide some ridiculous number like 30% of guns used illegal in crime/seized. one is in like in sc. gee, i wonder if thats a coincidence that a southern state so far away with lax gun laws has a shop that is directly responsible for essentially stocking hoodrats in an inner city. obvious straw purchasers are allowed to buy whatever bc it will bring the store a couple extra bucks. the gun shop owners have demonstrated they are morally incapable of policing themselves.

ive shot guns before. 22, 45, rifles, an illegal AK47 brought back from vietnam. and i guess it was alright. i was 14. didnt really like the gravity of what i was holding in my hand. coulda shot another uncle when i turned my body to talk and the gun turned with me. one squeeze and he coulda been dead. bc of a mental lapse. why fuck with that risk? thats also why i would consider owning a gun now.....but never with kids.

a story that really stuck with me: responsible gun owner has an overachieving hs kid. into boy scouts. good grades. sounded like he was a little socially awkward, but not aggressive, no antisocial and all trenchcoaty. he got a B in a class. parents yell at him. he gets distraught and shoots himself. one moment of teenage over angst and his life is over. his familes life is def over.

oh, and my uncle with all the guns- taken away by cops. deemed unfit to own them. he has always been unfit. now he got them taken in a state that has some of the strictest gun laws. thats good. but why was he licensed in the first place?

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i remember a story on NPR about a month ago where a a Scandinavian country with really lax gun laws and low crime had recently had a national disaster with a crazy gunman and they are now tightening their laws on guns. they realized that it is not in the public's interest to be armed to the teeth.


/end storybook. with no trolling!

[The Lizard King]

Badass pistol

[sdelcegno]

Owning guns is one of the rights we have in this country. Do you believe we should change the constitution to not allow it? The problem with outlawing guns is it doesnt effect the criminals ability to get them. There are more firearms here than anywhere else. What good would it be to outlaw firearms at this point? i never hurt anyone with mine. Criminals will use them no matter what. so laws really only will effect the good people. The problem when you compare gun crime in the USA to other countrys is they dont really give you the real statistics. Like why would suicides with guns be included in the firearm related deaths when talking about crime? Most gun crime is gang crime and drug related. Its gang on gang violence that are mostly illegal firearms. People that go out of their way to get permits and everything normally dont have issues. So really whats the solution? If it wasnt violence with guns they would simply use some other weapon. I believe in the rights we have as a people and sometimes bad things come along because we have those rights but i would never give them up.

[MillyMc]

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quick answer: yes, change the constitution and the changing mores of society dictates. it has been done numerous times. from treatments of minorities (racial and gender) and is in the process of treating the gays better. for better or worse it has changed. but im not going to get into a strict constructionist vs interpretation debate.

and you said yourself- theres no real reason to stockpile numerous firearms. collecting aside.

and go back and read my novel. most guns used in violent crimes come from states with lax gun laws and strong NRA support. the southern states are not immune to their poverty stricken to using guns in an illegal manner.

and generally that is what it is- poor people who have nothing to lose being given the ability to take another persons life into their hands. but, unfortunately, there are poor people everywhere.

[sdelcegno]

I guess i just dont believe in giving up rights as easily as you do. Changing laws because it treats black people different are not the same as changing laws when it comes to 1st or second amendment. Everyone knows why the 2nd amendment is there, And its not for the sport or hunting either. I am not a nut and and am not saying people should over throw the govt. But it was put in place as a safety against a govt that has grown out of control, if you have read the federalist papers you know how the founding father thought of govt and how some day it may have to be changed again and taken down forcefully if needed. People always say that the constitution is dated and the way the founding fathers thought doesnt apply to the modern age, but if you read alot of what they wrote they really were geniouses. until really the past few years of reading up on them i never realized how much they really understood. They werent perfect but the things they wrote apply today as easily as they did back then. Once Ones rights are taken away there is no getting them back without force. And i do believe the 2nd amendment is a last ditch protection of every other amendment. Without the threat of force how could a people ever protect their rights? I am neither a democrat or republican. I have views on both sides but i do not agree with the expansion our govt has taken over the last few decades. Our countrys politicians are bankrupting our nation and growing in size and taking more rights away from us whether it be with something like the patriot act or whatever. Everyone is to preoccupied with who wins american idol to even care how this nation is run anymore. Companys give money to politicians and they repay favors and that isnt even considered bribery. All rights are important they people should control the govt not the other way around. We are past the point in this country where voting can save us. So you can give up your rights im not going to give up mine. So i will accept the crime that comes with having a country with guns.

[MillyMc]

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what rights are being given up? nobody is talking about abolishing gun ownership, just a little common sense regulation and responsibility. you can drink, but you cant drink until you are 21. you cant get bombed in public. you cant drink and drive, and you cannot drink yourself into a coma and then refuse medical treatment.

then you start to go from talk over owning weapons to threatening to overthrow the government. lets calm down now. id like to think we have progressed as a society beyond violence to solve problems. do you really think it is the threat of violence which keeps politicians from passing anything too crazy? no, it is the system of checks and balances that the geniuses created. the threat of violence is what the drug dealers and gangbangers you look down on engage in.

as for the rest of your argument, im not going to even touch on it unless you can show me where you have made the same argument a year and a week ago. i dont have time for convenient patriots. (said without disrespect....as little as possible at least). and actually unless you can show me something you wrote complaining about the loss of privacy due to the patriot act or the systemic allowance of torture or the corporate giveaway of the Rx act your whole giving up rights argument is bunk.

but lets not let this derail a good debate/thread. we are both pretty educated on the issue and made good points. lets let this lie and allow other people to take in both sides of the issue.

one last thought: the next time you are in an inner city....go two blocks or so off the main road and walk a couple of blocks. ask yourself if you would like there to be more guns on that street.

[sdelcegno]

I am not a convenient patriot, I didnt like the bush administration and i certainly dont like the new one. I dont believe we should be at war our troops deserve more than to serve and die for nothing. I am not religious i am pro choice. i have views on both sides the way it should be.

I understand when people say to put in place common sense laws i do. The problem lies with who puts these laws in place. If i explained alot of the current laws with why some weapons are legal and others arent it would make no sense to you. The people that put these laws in place rarely do so because they are gun owners or even understand the laws they put in place. They are put in place for political reason for show. Laws are also followed by more and more regulation till you come to the point where guns will be illegal. I dont mind background checks at all. I would like them to do a better job to see if people arent mentally ill that is ok. I think prior to getting a carry permit they should test for your shooting ability better. Those laws would be fine for me. But ill be honest i will some day buy a machine gun. I own suppressors or AKA silencers better than hearing protection. I also would like to have a 20mm rifle some day and a 50 cal. All the weapons you think are crazy really arent because one they are expensive. They arent being used in crimes they are bought by people who collect. I have a large vault to protect them from being stolen. I will probably buy a grenade launcher some day as well. so really what laws do you want to put in place if the big collectors like me dont commit crimes with them? what will it matter what weapons i have? What laws do you think would be fair when it comes to firearms and why?

[MillyMc]

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i can personally vouch that many people making the laws are not gunowners, but i can also vouch that many of them have been deeply affected by gun violence. they care. they truly want to make sure no one else is affected like they have.

i personally do not believe you should have a 50 cal, bc i believe they have the capabilities to shoot down an airplane. correct me if that is wrong. (my thoughts go to that nut in VA that killed his family and then almost shot down a search helicopter. id love to know what he was shooting for that).

and a grenade launcher?! seriously?!!? no chance should that be legal. i didnt even think grenades were illegal? ive seen grenades, and there is nothing there worth really seeing beyond the -holy shit faction.

beyond that, i know most of the attachments are generally for show. i dont really care about that. but i believe the genesis for looking down on them is the thought of altering the gun so that it is more deadly?

in the end, i would be happy with really stringent buying restrictions. who can buy them, who long they have to wait, how many they can buy, and punishments for "community guns" (guns bought by one person who then lets people borrow it to do dirt. if your gun is used in a crime and you did not report it stolen you are in for a world of trouble). to go back again to restrictions and the effectiveness- theres a reason a lot of the guns used in the commission of a crime in the NE come from somewhere else and that is bc the people using them cannot pass muster to buy legally.

and just bc you are extra careful doesnt mean that everyone else is. the fewer guns in circulation the better.

or if all else fails, go with chris rock's answer: make the bullets $10k

[Striker]

Gun laws don't stop crime.